Oh ho! "Professionals"

5 November 2007, 11:56 am. View comments. Filed under Design, Rants, Web-related.

Navigation-wise, what is a menu? More specifically, is this a menu? As far as I can see, it provides a selection of available options. If you disable CSS, it's organised into a list of options. But oh no, for design elitists who favour solid, stubborn, Web 2.0-style designs and can't see anything else through their little eyes, menus must be organised in the same way as all the other "clean and simple" designs out there. By some commentators on this article I dugg, it's not a menu. Please enlighten me then, what's the new definition of a "menu"?

Is HTML/CSS coding then?

You have designers, front-enders and programmers. A designer shouldn't HTML, a front-ender shouldn't write code and a programmer shouldn't design. The reverse is also true, a programmer shouldn't need to worry about front-ending, a front-ender shouldn't be designing and a designer shouldn't write code.

Some people can combine 2 or 3, but that's rarely a good combination, or only a good combination in their mind and the minds of equally retarded peers. In conclusion, professionals specialize themselves and don't do things below (or above) their paycheck.

Ah, I see. No, that was sarcasm. I don't see. I don't see at all why programmers do not need to worry about how users at the front-end are going to use their software. Are you coding shit for your own back-end use? Would you be more happy hiring a programmer, a front-ender and a designer for a project, or would you like to hire someone who can do all of that just as well if not better than three specialists?

I'm sad. Because while an economist is a professional and a lawyer is a professional, I'm wanting to be an commercial (economics) lawyer. That's just wow, "only a good combination in [my] mind and the minds of equally retarded peers." I'm not really sad, cause I think I just quoted a retard.

Continuing on from the same person...

That said, the article in this Digg-post is neither advanced nor "coding" - it's HTML and CSS.. the basics, really, of anyone professional enough to bother working with professional people. The MVC-idea if you will, Model, View, Control. But most people here aren't professionals I suppose, so.. sorry for sounding "elitist" (not intended that way), but if you consider this example "advanced coding".. well.. you're not that experienced.

I agree with part of that. To me, it's not "advanced coding" either even though it may well be for some. But totally denying that HTML and CSS are "coding"... Well, what are they then? They're just... HTML and... CSS. Right.

And for all that time, I've been referring to HTML and CSS as coding! Well, since I'm neither a professional in design nor coding, I don't need to change my terms for an egghead of a "professional".

13 Comments »

Hev. 5 November 2007, 1:05 pm

Well, I don't care what anyone says. I may not be a professional, but I do code in HTML & CSS. Whoever you are quoting is just stating their opinion, in my opinion. Personally, I code, design, and program. I may not be good at any one part and better at some of it, but I an proudly stand & say that all my sites (except for Book Craze) were designed by myself. I am proud of my ability to create and design my own pages, you should be proud also, Rilla.

HTML & CSS are coding. Any one that doesn't understand it can not just pick up a piece of paper that contains HTML & CSS and understand what it is saying. I know that every time my mother picks up one of my backup sheets. She tells me that I shouldn't be printing out 50 pages of gibberish. Now you tell me that isn't code. Hmm...sounds like this person doesn't know shit if you will pardon my language.
Rilla. 5 November 2007, 1:14 pm

I tried finding something that suggests it was only in his own opinion. However, I failed. There was none of that "I think" or "in my opinion" but simply something like In conclusion, professionals specialize themselves. He spoke as if everything he said were mere facts.
Cindy. 5 November 2007, 3:03 pm

Ugggh I can't stand those people! =.= They think they're so "elite". Well, if they want to make life difficult for themselves, fine ... but do they have to go around preaching their blasphemy to innocent minds? Jeez.
Leila. 5 November 2007, 11:38 pm

"Equally retarded peers"? JACKASS ALARM, JACKASS ALARM

Everything he says pretty much throws the concept of Wordpress/Textpattern/what-have-you styles out the window, since all those elements are pretty much integrated into one with those things. Perhaps it wouldn't be in an ideal world, but at the current moment, webdesign is still an interdisciplinary practice.

I bet this guy doesn't have a website. I also bet that he's a programmer.
Kaylee. 6 November 2007, 1:20 pm

I would think that having many skills rather than just a specific one would make you better, but I guess it just means you're not a professional...

This is sad. I always liked learning a lot of things at once.
Chien Yee. 7 November 2007, 3:30 am

Urgh. Those type of people who think they know everything again. If they don't like the sound of it, just don't comment on it. Because it leads to usually drama or equivalent.

Somehow I think that 'retarded peers' refer to me as well? I don't self proclaim myself as a professional, nor did Nick of webdesignerwall. Having many skills is actually more useful that fully specializing in one. Those who specialize are not professionals but specialists.

Like you said, if we specialize in only one, well won't that seem useless? Having long waiting times for just one web project that can be completed single-handedly instead of going through two or three persons.

Professional (noun) in wikitionary means:
1. A person who belongs to a profession
2. A person who earns his living from a specified activity

professional (adjective)
1. Of, pertaining to, or in accordance with the standards of a profession
2. That is carried out for money, especially as a livelihood
3. (by extension) Expert

So professional can mean the three combined. Don't you agree?

*oops, super lengthy comment this time*
Imdolien. 7 November 2007, 8:19 am

I really can't blame you for your heavy use of sarcasm in that post. But then again, I personally gave up paying too much attention to what people are saying about webdesign unless its constructive.
In the case you quoted, that's the kind of elitist crap that gets filtered out. As far as I'm concerned, unless you're demanding a high price for your services, you should be allowed to use whatever combination of code, design and whatever else as long as it is respectful to your audience and is the best you can do with your skills at the moment.
For me, half the fun of all this is accomplishing something new or improved.
But anyways, all that is generally a crock. The idea is to encompass as much of each of those skills as is necessary to get what you need to get done properly.
Vera. 7 November 2007, 6:11 pm

To me, the word menu has the meaning of a lits of available options. From that point of view, it most certainly IS a menu. Most posts on that digg are just some "leet" coders trying to show off in front of non-leets.

The method is not particularly advanced, and obviously there are other ways to achieve it.

I'm not particularly fond of it design-wise, but yes it most definitely is a menu.
Amber. 7 November 2007, 9:17 pm

I thought it was good to have knowledge in a variety of topics and 'major' in one. Not that I have any idea about the three topics you listed; I'm a blogger and nothing more.

I love the layout of Web Designer Wall. I've been in awe for a long time.
Kimmie. 8 November 2007, 2:27 am

"Ah, I see. No, that was sarcasm. I don't see. I don't see at all why programmers do not need to worry about how users at the front-end are going to use their software. Are you coding shit for your own back-end use? Would you be more happy hiring a programmer, a front-ender and a designer for a project, or would you like to hire someone who can do all of that just as well if not better than three specialists?"

Actually, I think the guy is right on this one, but I think you have limited yourself to just the web. He is referring to all software. Sorry, but in a real commercial setting, programmers really actually don't care about the front-end use. I've never worked for, done contracting for, or heard of a company that made their real programmers focus on the front end side. The fact is, products need to get out the door fast, and it needs to be sell able. Sure, you could have your main programmers work on getting all of the buttons to work and making them all look nice, etc. etc. Or during the time they could spend on making a GUI, they could be adding more features or functionality to a program, which is what companies choose for obvious reasons. Now, a programmer SHOULD know how to do some of the front end stuff. However, most programmers don't spend lots of time studying how to make things pretty because they just don't care and they would rather move on and solve real problems (like how to make software that can integrate Oracle, Access, and Microsoft SQL server). The fact is, the programmers expect the front end part to be done while they are working on getting a awesome product out the door. Front-ends can take a long time to make, and that time could be spent elsewhere.

As for hiring someone who is great at programming, building a front end, and an artist? I think that's a little unrealistic. Maybe a handful of people are like that, but if companies were searching for people who were masterful at all three, they would probably hire like one person in a century. Plus, if you have just one person working on all three, it will probably take three times as long to get a product out the door than it would if you had three separate people working on each task.

While I understand where the guy was coming from, I have to say I wish he hadn't been such a jerk about it. However, he does have a point that shouldn't be completely ignored.
Rilla. 8 November 2007, 12:02 pm

I understand your point of view Kimmie when you say it's in a real commercial setting. However, there are freelancers on the web who can work with all, aren't there? Of course, that's on the web, but you can't immediately assume someone is a non-professional just because they are associated with programming, front-end and design. Right?
Vera. 8 November 2007, 11:59 pm

I work in a "real commercial setting" and my boss wouldn't dream of hiring someone with design abilities. As soon as he got wind of me being preoccupied by this, I got saddled by the majority of such tasks, ASIDE the regular back-end coding.

I agree with Kimmie that mos programmers don't care about it, which is why most of my colleagues roll their eyes at me when I blow a gasket about shoddy HTML (which end up not working AT ALL, because HTML is obviously not a programming language - unlike C# - so it can be written in any which way). On the other hand, when the client comes back to complain that they don't like they way the button looks, and it's difficult to use... they're immensely grateful that I pestered them with such things.

So basically: programmers don't care what the front-end looks like, while the client generally only understands the front-end. And guess who pays the programmer?

Also, unless the company you work for is in advertising, or art oriented, rather than a software one, chances of an artist being hired (to design the interface) are slim to none.

(I had to refresh the page for the verification code to be accepted... again).
Kimmie. 9 November 2007, 1:26 am

Rilla: I actually purposely didn't use the word "professional" in my argument just because I didn't want to go there. That wasn't what my argument was about at all. It was about why you wouldn't hire someone who is good at all three in a commercial environment.

But if you really want to go there... Do I think freelance web designers are professionals? Hell, I call anyone who makes money in a field a professional. The guy at McDonald's is a professional in the field of golden arches. I call prostitutes "professional working girls". So, professional to me really doesn't have all of the glam that everyone here seems to feel it does. It's just a title that really doesn't mean the same thing that it meant forty years ago. But, if you're making money doing whatever it is you do, then in my mind you are a professional at that one particular thing.